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Track tire choice

6K views 27 replies 12 participants last post by  Single assassin 
#1 ·
Hey guys, I'd like to get your input on track tire choices for the 690. I'll be using tire warmers and the tires will be used on track only. Would be nice to get as much mileage out of them as possible, but I understand that's a compromise.

I'm currently at a skill level where I'm starting to touch the limits of M7RRs, and I know how to go faster, so I'm thinking the first set will help me get to the limit of my ability, and help me develop my skills without being limited by tires.

What's your thoughts and experiences?

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#2 ·
I'm currently at a skill level where I'm starting to touch the limits of M7RRs,

What's your thoughts and experiences?

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this may sound harsh, but no you're not.

In the UK, we have a rider called Michael Rutter, ex TT winner, road race god, ex BSB rider etc etc.... He lapped Mallory park just 2.1s slower on Road based M7's than on Supercorsa slicks.

You may feel you're on the limit, but unless you're DAMN quick... i'm afraid it's all in your head.

Sorry if that sounds brutal.
 
#4 ·
Haha, no worries! You're right :) I appreciate occasional reality checks. I lapped consistent 1.19 laps on the track here (the best Superstock600 guys do 1.08s). The tire was pretty cold though (hence my interested in the tire pressure thread), and I felt the front tire jumping on a occasion or two, which is why I felt I wouldn't mind more margin on my side. I'm sure you could push the tire quite far before it hits its actual limit.

I'm really confused though, I'm not sure if I should continue working with street tires, spending the first few laps on warming them up, or just get myself the extra margin of stickier (heated) tires from start.
 
#6 ·
It's a tricky question. Track dedicated tyres are more sensitive to pressures, to setup, temperatures and of course they will wear quicker and be more expensive. However, they WILL have more grip, of that there's no doubt. Whether we as mortals can even notice it, well that's open to debate...

Some tyres not only have more grip, but different profiles, giving different characteristics of turn in, tip in and lean angle... again, whether the tyre you buy is right/wrong is open to debate there too.

I absolutely love Bridgestone R10s, they're the softest, stickiest, nicest tyres ever.... but i honestly doubt i'm any quicker on them than on my Bridgestone S20's. But the S20's will last me a year..
Didn't know the R10s came in 160/60, are you running 180 tires? Good point on characteristics, it's worth considering and I assume that it could have a big impact on the feel and you'd have to adapt to that.
 
#10 ·
Contis have never been the choice of any racer or track day rider that I know of.
They get hard fast and wear is horrible.
You'll have a hard time keeping a tire that requires warmers up to temp on the 690 unless you're super aggressive. It's just not needed. A set of Q3s at 26 rear and 31 front. If you out ride the grip provided there then you are either a pro level rider or you are doing something wrong as in rough on throttle or braking.
 
#11 ·
Does that apply to all Continentals or just the Attack SM? I'm asking because I run TrailAttack 2 on the street and am happy with them but if there are grippier tires I could be using I wouldn't mind trying out something new next time these wear down.
 
#14 ·
This thread highlights the fact that road/ trackday tyres are a very personal choice. I like my pirellis but others like dunlops or bridgestones, to each their own, but as previously mentioned the tyre is by far more capable than us mere mortal riders and the choices are endless. I have never had contis although a friend put one of the rear of her BMW S1000 and was impressed. Compromising soft for mileage is a tough one and I have always put the softest road tyres on my ducatis for the times when I may make a mistake. In most cases high mileage does not equal high traction. The one thing I have noticed is that although all WSBK guys run the same tyres its usually the slower guys that crash. Tyres are cheap insurance they are the only things that keep you upright so unless you slog 10,000km a year then soft is best, then you can track at your hearts content.
 
#15 ·
Points well made. It's seem like (1) tires are highly subjective, (2) most exceed rider ability, and (3) YMMV.

I have a technical question though about the Duke. It seems that people often recommend tires based on experiences on other motorcycles (not the duke), and it's up to you to aggregate those opinions and measure them against your needs/preferences. Now, with other bikes it might be easier to compare (e.g. any inline 4 super sport to another) as weight, ergos etc are somewhat similar. But, does the Duke being so light make it an exception - in that it can't heat up many of the tires that are great on other bikes?
 
#16 ·
Funny you mention that, there was discussion in the sheds that a lot of the superbike and supersport guys have changed from Pirelli SC1 fronts to SC2 fronts due to the stiffer sidewall that gives better stability under braking, during trail braking and mid corner. These bikes are 30 - 40 kgs heavier in some cases to the 690 and have no problem generating heat in the tyre. I have only run SC1 on the duke and find the heat generated is fine and stability is fine. Just remember that temperatures will also be impacted by playing around with pressures and suspension voodoo stuff. Check the other tyre thread at the pictures of the front of mine with differing track temp and pressures.
 
#17 ·
Yesterday I talked to a guy that used to race a Kawa ER6 and was putting down insane lap times on every track he went to (1.10 on the track I mentioned where Superstock600 guys put 1.08s). I asked him what he thought about tires since the ER6 is similar in power to the 690 and he can go really fast on a bike like that.

He basically said that the only tire he ever tried on that bike was Bridgestones R10. The ER6 rear tire is also supposed to be 160/60 as on the duke, but he said you shouldn't be afraid to try a 180 tire out, even though the specification says otherwise. He said the rubber quality on the R10 is really really good and recommended using the Type 2 (for swedish summer heat ~10-25c). It lasted him 2-3 trackdays. Another guy I talked to (that likes to put 180 tires on the duke) said that the R10 fits the duke without any hassle, while other 180 tires such as Supercorsas do not. But then again, a larger tire will require more out of you as a rider to retain heat. I guess if you can manage that, and it fits the bike, why not.

He also talked briefly about the Dunlop sportmax Q3's which they use in the german IDM racing series (a highly homologated? R6 class). He said that you can go really fast on that tire, which is a street/track tire, but you notice the difference in the rubber. Basically what @Jordo said, it's a compromise between range and grip. He estimated that they lose around 3s versus a race tire on a track like Assen. I haven't found any place to buy that tire though, but if you can I think that could be a solid choice.

I got an offer for the new Dunlop D212 GP Racer with 15% off in a local shop around here (the tire is WTF-expensive in all other places), so it basically matches all other interesting options in price. I think I'll try that one out. Reviews seems good (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/new-gear/2016/november/new-gear-dunlop-gp-racer-d212/), and everyone around here loves dunlop tires...
 
#19 ·
As we all agree it comes down to personal preference and trying different brands. My last word of advise would be if you are serious about track days and want to get every poofteenth of a second out of them, buy another set of rims and run dedicated race tyres. Change them over to your roadies when you get home that way the compromise is out of the equation. Just remember what rubber you are on when you bomb into the roadabout outside the local mall doing mach 3 :)
 
#21 ·
Bazinga.....
 
#24 ·
The vendor at my track is a Bridgestone guy. Pulled the trigger on some 165/120 slicks after 1 day on some year old Dunlop alpha 13s. Dropped a second of my lap time with more time to come. I have a spare set of rain tires on wheels should the weather not cooperate, however. Very happy with them, got a medium rear and a soft front. Might be able to get 2 more weekends out of the rear. Stock suspension is causing some issues with the rear, however.
 
#25 · (Edited)
So I went back to the track equipped with the Dunlops and tyre warmers. Here's the entire story :)

I started out the first sessions with just getting a feel for everything. The dunlops are so much stiffer than the M7RRs. I now get what they say when they mean that race tyres don't move as much. The tyres were rock solid and felt consistent through every brake, turn and acceleration. That was really confidence inspiring. Instantly I felt that my previous personal best was just far too slow and the pace did not dignify these tyres, they wanted more.

More I gave them! After making sure I felt comfortable with all the new impressions, in my 3rd run, I simply started to go into turns a lot faster and upped my pace by several seconds. By the 4th round I was down to 1,15.7 (compared to 1,19.1 on M7RR). It felt GREAT! I was scraping my knee for real now, not just nudging the ground, I mean getting the knee down and then getting the bike down a little more. That was a lot of fun!!!

Then it started to go downhill... I was basically fearless and had a godlike confidence of slowly increasing my pace even more, until weird things started to happen. The rear didn't want to give me more. In the 5th round I was first about to low-side, and a lap further down the line it almost through me overboard in a smaller high-side. I didn't understand what was happening at the time, so I just slowed down. Next round it happened again, and I got a sense of what was happening. When enginebraking in the second part of a double right-hander the rear was stuttering, and it was doing the same thing when coming out of a tight left-turn. Didn't feel good at all, but at least I knew what feeling to avoid. It still haunted me more than I'd like because I didn't understand why it was happening. The tyre should be able to handle that.

I now decide to leave it all and just focus on what I'm bad at, left turns, and try to achieve the same good feeling I have in right turns. After a couple of laps, I go down.

I ask one of the better guys at the track about it and he comes over to feel my bike suspension. He instantly says the rear is way to soft and his theory is that I must have squatted the suspension until it lost its function. I bought his thoughts, since most corners are banked and heavy on the rear. Add to that, that I have mixed with my rebound and put it at 2 clicks. So my final conclusion is that in combination with the rear compression being too soft as well as my rebound being too fast. The effect I'm blaming it on is that the rear squatted and lost traction, and the rebound was too fast in recovering that and hence I was feeling the stutter I described above.

For day 2 I just focused on getting back on the horse. I set all suspension settings to the dukes recommended sport settings. Didn't get back to my best times though, but close enough. I at least found the good feeling at low 1.17s in the end, and I'm happy with that. I'll get back to to getting to sub 1.15 times later this summer and test out the suspension theory for real.

Final thoughts about the tyres:
The front tyre was amazing. It handled everything I threw at it like a dream. I was like what more can I do to you before you say no??? Rear tyre was awesome coming out of corners. I never had that good of a feeling when accelerating out of corners, it was fast and really grippy. I highly recommend these tyres.

Also did a stupid ****ing thing and burnt my tyre warmers in the first session. Don't leave them connected in, they burn themselves up. I'm still pissed at myself for not reading the manual. They are functional but pretty melted in some places. I blame it on the stressful morning.


 
#28 ·
If your suspensions not right you can have the best tyres in the world and they won’t work. Put stickier tyres on the situation gets worse as the increase in grip gives the suspension even more of a hard time. I’d always get the suspension sorted then get some good tyres. Hope your ok after the crash.
 
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