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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mill tech View Post
I have personally watched three of these guys make simplistic modifications that have produced horsepower increases of 8 - 12%. No parts swap-outs, increased (or altered) displacements or re-engineered electrical systems!
The catch is that most of us do not have either the skills, tools, or time to achieve these results so we buy big bore kits, cams, pipes, throttle bodies, tuners. Some of us (the lucky or dumb depending on perspective) even stake our careers on making a living selling, installing, advising these parts!
WHat i see from a displacement increase is the stock cam , Pipe , Intake all become a more potent tuning department.

Im really enjoying the discussion though, well its been called the "dream" but i can agree with this dream.
60 years of motor industry mods proves otherwise.Generally its a reality with a viable outcome.
Not such a big dream as obtaining the new model duke is to most of us .

This type of displacement mod really does put in context the tuning potential of all the "current mods" guys are spending money on.

To be honest has there ever been a real reason to put a rally cam in your bike?
Displacement and valve flow is where its at(starts) .

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 05:44 AM Thread Starter
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Im going to be bold as i believe some of us are spending money on modding bikes for vastly different reasons.

I give you this fact
Insurance /registration/ other on road costs (locally) are impacting the yearly costs.
Going up in Bike size(generally for power, not for increase weight thats for sure)


Taking into account that generally the more the new bike has a higher power to weight ratio, the more it costs you each year. This is becoming (or has become) a reality in everyday road use for modernizing countries trying to code their regulations.

You will be hard pressed to get away from this.

To cut this short a little , i will boldly say that big bore road use pays for itself.

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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-20-2016, 09:51 PM
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Just to put a dampener on this discussion, the 690 puts out somewhere around 63 hp at the wheel standard. A 10% increase, which is huge and expensive, makes it 69 RWH which at most times will mostly on the road be unnoticable. Any mods for a road bike with 70 hp should be based around ridability not power and a few have been listed on this forum. With this small hp number power performance mods are IMO a waste of money. This 9 hp would probably cost in excess of $5000 to install which is in a lot of cases over 50% of the bikes value...To bring it back to the trackie post that money is best spent on suspension and a diet.. It matters little that you are going 5 kmh faster down the straight if it wont hold a line in corners, thats where the lap times come from. You dont buy a 690 for hp sorry...

IF YOU FLY JETS LONG ENOUGH , THIS KIND OF THING HAPPENS

Current bikes:
690 Duke race bike
748 Ducati race bike

Previous bikes:
Triumph Bonneville cafe custom
1098S Ducati
749 Ducati
748 Ducati
Triumph Daytona 955
Triumph Daytona 600 race bike
Kawasaki ZX7/ZXR750
A couple of dirties too
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
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Just to put a dampener on this discussion, the 690 puts out somewhere around 63 hp at the wheel standard. A 10% increase, which is huge and expensive, makes it 69 RWH which at most times will mostly on the road be unnoticable. Any mods for a road bike with 70 hp should be based around ridability not power and a few have been listed on this forum. With this small hp number power performance mods are IMO a waste of money. This 9 hp would probably cost in excess of $5000 to install which is in a lot of cases over 50% of the bikes value...To bring it back to the trackie post that money is best spent on suspension and a diet.. It matters little that you are going 5 kmh faster down the straight if it wont hold a line in corners, thats where the lap times come from. You dont buy a 690 for hp sorry...
In a track sence.

Im not saying anything against your post , but at some point the suspension becomes done/complete/as best as possible for how the bike tracks its power to weight.

Are the 690's maxed out? i bet it was close until they made the newer LC4 a larger piston and shorter stroke.
Then theres 1000's and 1000's of very cheap (10-15 year old) LC4 that are not maxed. Can they be maxed for a good price per HP?. Is there an expert on this? Hmmmm

Anyway before the cafe racer phenom i would have not looked at old bikes, but genre's are growing.

Theres a 1000 10-15 year old KTM bikes almost ready to track, the new guys look and sees its 5-7KW down and a few (kg/m) of torque. He cant afford a new bike.

Hell yeah , there needs to be a kit or atleast it needs to be nutted out.cheers

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Last edited by cors187; 12-23-2016 at 01:21 PM.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 09:23 AM
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With this small hp number power performance mods are IMO a waste of money
Our largest Big Bore creates about 13% increase in power. We have over 100 full time employees. The racing world disagrees with you.
If my riding skill and yours are equal and our bikes are outfitted exactly the same. Do you want 10% more available torque/HP in order to have the advantage?


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This 9 hp would probably cost in excess of $5000 to install .
I stated I could provide the Big Bore for around $495.00 USD. Within a few hours 3 forum members said they would make a purchase. I also made a post that was specifically aligned with low or no cost modifications that create performance gains.

I am not trying to cause trouble. However, I firmly believe engine performance modifications are directly related to track day performance
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 08:10 PM
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Not disagreeing with any of what you have said. My question has always been around the cost of performance on low HP, low cost bikes. Maybe because I dont have funds to splash around dictates my thought process a bit too much. My 2012 cost me about $9000 total from initial purchase to race ready. There comes a time when in this series you need to balance cost on return and I admit I missed the cost portion of the big bore discussion, I will still put suspension setup as being first priority to improve lap times and agree once this is completed where do you go next...performance. You have sparked my interest re the cost of the kit and would like to know more.
I assume this mod would required a PCV or equivalent, or would the standard ECU be able to adjust fueling itself.

IF YOU FLY JETS LONG ENOUGH , THIS KIND OF THING HAPPENS

Current bikes:
690 Duke race bike
748 Ducati race bike

Previous bikes:
Triumph Bonneville cafe custom
1098S Ducati
749 Ducati
748 Ducati
Triumph Daytona 955
Triumph Daytona 600 race bike
Kawasaki ZX7/ZXR750
A couple of dirties too
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 12:28 AM
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........or would the standard ECU be able to adjust fueling itself.


I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was that made you so likeable. Now I see it is your air of optimism.

*wistfully dreams about fitting a flat-slide carbie"

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I can get on with gear.....once I've hoovered the wifes car
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 10:14 AM
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. . . I will still put suspension setup as being first priority to improve lap times.
Largest budget allocation for my personal racing? Tires and suspension! Horsepower without traction is useless!!!

I also totally align with you on the balance of HP per dollar invested. It is for this reason I will dissuade customers from doing porting work on say YZ450F and YFZ450 heads. It doesn't make sense to spend $600.00 - $2,000.00 to gain Dyno sheet horsepower that is negligible at best. For these same reasons we do not make Big Bore kits for the newer 250 starter bikes i.e. CB250, EX250.

I can not say for sure but most of the smaller big bore kits we make do not require ecu mods. During the R&D of our new Polaris 570 (Big Bored to 625) with all oem parts unmodified. We made a 9% increase in HP with the factory installed and programmed ecu. By adding only a Powercommander we were able to obtain an additional 2%. Just for fun one of our customers that received a kit for field testing was able to produce 49 hp on E-85! That is impressive when all of the respectable dyno tuners have consistently shown stock RWHP at about 36. Now, understand this customer is interested in making HP numbers not reliable/usable engines.

I'm fairly confident that this kit can be installed and no other modifications will be required to run properly. That is not to say that making additional mods wouldn't be useful!


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