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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
So guys,

Im abandoning the idea of checking my front valve clearances before teardown as Im finding it very difficult to rotate the crank around. Every time I try (from the primary gear side, or the rotor side) all I end up doing is cracking the bolt / nut off. There is that much resistance to it wanting to spin over. So in an effort not to break anything im just gonna pull the timing chains off and the cams and see if it free spins afterwards. Check things internally afterwards.

I DONT understand why it wont spin over. It very may MAY, if the damn bolts didn't keep coming undone instead, but it shouldn't take that much ummph.

In addition, when I get the timing marks lined up on the front head and @ ITDC, and the valves are closed, the tolerances seem WAY too tight. Something doesn't jive, considering I have slack in the timing chain as well.

Ill find out more as I go along.

Otherwise, this hasn't been that bad of a teardown from start to where I am now....so far.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Spent a couple hours. Pulled the heads off, without checking front valve clearance. I suspect the timing chain skipped a tooth on the intake cam on the front cam, as when I took the tensioner out it appears it failed to release into full tension mode after install. Even though I put more than enough force to release the pin for it (I know this as I locked and released it several times before reinstallation) Seems to work... but ill feel better after having manual tensioner. ENGINE NOW ROTATES SUPER SMOOTH!!! :)

Although no markings on piston or bottom of valves to indicate contact.

Measured my shims once the came were out. Easy enough, swing cam followers up and used magnet to pull shims out. All measured 0.100" (2.5 mils). And were stamped as such underneath.



Cylinder walls looked good, still see crosshatching on them and everything. I left the pistons inside the cylinder for time being. Exclusive use of Shell V power 91 leads the this kinda residue apparently. Valves look less gunky however.





Overall pic, without heads.

Found something ODD!! Between cylinder valley, and you can see it from the clutch side when removed, inside the channels that coolant flows to the external cooler. I seen an o-ring wedged between the engine halves!!!! Dunno where its from or why its there just yet, but ill find out!!
Haven't snapped a good pic of it yet, ill get one. It didn't seem to impede anything (except water flow I suppose), but how did it end up there?!?!

Didn't have a H bar to pull primary gear, and don't wanna pay KTM the amount they wanted so ill fab one up somehow. I bought a gear puller but it doesn't fit, as the primary gear is nestled close to the engine casing wall.

Apologize for small pics, must be my damn tablet doing something to them, ill make them full size when I'm on a real computer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I finally found a puller that I was able to grind down and polish up enough to fit between the gears and casing of this engine. Thank you Princess auto for the $13 2 arm puller for which KTM wants $200 for. For all interested, you have less that 0.200" clearance to fit the arm of the puller between the gear and casing. I should post a pic of my puller then you can see the tremendous amount of metal I removed the make it work.

Here's some pics!

The crank once removed. Must get a little warm, some slight discolorization. The con rod bearings seemed tight with no play, so that's good. In second pic you can see where the crank lock pin holds the crank still. Theres 2 cutouts for it.






Here you can see the tranny gearset. Shift drum was removed as when I pulled the casing off it wiggled loose. I don't know where exactly it lines up with the forks. Guess Ill figure that out upon rebuild.







Here you can see the magneto / stator side casing. NOTICE THE LACK OF ANY SEALANT ON THE CASE HALVES!!! I DID NOT CLEAN THESE, JUST DABBED OIL OFF IT! NO WONDER IT LEAKED!!! Guess Im lucky it even held for 12000km's. There was no line of rubbery material to remove anywhere, which would normally be the case with RTV sealant. Manual says to reseal with LOCTITE 5910, but we cant get that here is North America apparently, so Im thinking Ill use PERMATEX Ultra Grey rigid Hi torque RTV sealant. Its also NOT $66 bucks a tube like the Loctite 5910. But everywhere Ive read everyone says it works good and its specifically designed for this application. So Im using it.





Here's that O-ring I thought I seen between the water passage leading to the heads. I don't know how it didn't leak somewhere, it fills the groove for the ring pretty well, however seems like a lot of excessive material. Second pics shows it pretty well

 

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Manual says to reseal with LOCTITE 5910, but we cant get that here is North America apparently, so Im thinking Ill use PERMATEX Ultra Grey rigid Hi torque RTV sealant. Its also NOT $66 bucks a tube like the Loctite 5910. But everywhere Ive read everyone says it works good and its specifically designed for this application. So Im using it.
Just in case you haven't bought the Permatex yet.

RSHughes has 5910 for $45.41 (we use them for all our sealant purchases).
http://www.rshughes.com/p/Loctite-5910-Silicone-Sealant-Black-Paste-300-Ml-Cartridge-Shore-Hardness-30-Shore-D-Shear-Strength-130-To-200-Psi-Tensile-Strength-247-Psi/079340_21746/

Also McMaster-Carr has it for $40.56

http://www.mcmaster.com/#loctite-5910/=vkbod4
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
That's helpful, thank you!

However, I find it hard to believe this is any better than the other stuff (any brand really), and for 4 times the price? The I bet I pay 20 $ shipping to canada on this as well....

Dunno if Its worth justifying it or not.
 

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More useless tidbits.

One more possible sealant I ended up using on
the rocker cover of my 640e. This quote is from
Creeper's thread on ADVrider. Not sure if it helps but....

"As I said earlier, I intended to use Three Bond 1211… until I talked to Tony Tsukui, the Branch Manager at Three Bond International in Torrance, CA.

My first question was about “when” to use the product… in other words, should I assemble the parts before or after the product becomes “tack free”? Tony told me in no uncertain terms that Three Bond silicone sealants should be assembled before they become tack free.

I told Tony what my particular application was, and this is where I think contacting Three Bond was one of my better ideas.
Tony recommended that I not use the 1211, but instead using a relatively new product called 1216E, which was developed for Honda, specifically for rocker cover applications. It is sold in Honda dealers as “Hondabond HT” sealant.
Tony indicated that, in the rocker cover application, the 1216E now surpasses the sometimes difficult to find Three Bond 1215 as the sealant of choice, which is the product recommended by KTM."
 

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I used Yama-bond on all of our cases. No leaks You can pick it up at almost any Yamaha dealership
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Heard good stuff about that as well. I might just stop by the dealer as theyre super close to my work.

But I kinda wanna try the permatex just for ****s and giggles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Picked up some Yamaha/Honda/ducati BOND just today. ill seal it this weekend I think.

Keep you guys posted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 · (Edited)
Alright enough delay!!

Gonna work on her tonight or tomorrow. Im at the point where I can seal the cases back together. I was fiddling with the tranny a little to make sure its together correctly and shifts through the gears. It does, but its slightly confusing as to which gear is where exactly. And one or two of the "shifts" (me rotating drum) seem to take some pressure to do so whereas others are nice and smooth. There's really only one way it can go together so it should be installed correctly. It appears the entire shift drum isn't utilized, leaving about 1/2" of space from the main gear shift fork channel, whereas the countershaft gear shift forks are locked t the end of the drum. Ill snap pics tonight or tomorrow to show what I mean.

Been stalling a little as Im kicking the old lady out of the house, so ive been pre-occupied for the last week or two. Sorry fellas
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
So I got the cases together. Used Yamabond as sealant.

Had issues with the tranny countershaft seal distorting, took 3-4 tries to get it on without the seal spring popping off! Its on there now...I hope haha. Also hoping the shift fork springs and rollers remained where they were supposed to as I was constantly installing/removing the left side case. In my haste dealing with the damn shaft seal I forgot to give one last look to make sure they didn't move. Once sealant dries ill shake the engine see if I hear anything rolling around. Another method would be the shift star. Rotating it directly moves the shift drum and the springs keep pressure on the forks. So if I don't have some spring to it then I'm in trouble!

Stupid UPS is supposed to deliver my shift star tomorrow. I hope so as I can't pick it up directly (I tried, their automated service blows) and if I miss them tomorrow they send it back... the assholes.

But.... off to Mexico for a week on Tuesday so I won't know for 8 more days.

Some pics.

Heres the shift drum with rollers and all. You can see how the forks engage, here you see them at each end of its rotational travel. Can see the shift fork shaft springs as well. Also springs on the underside of them. I have them lubed as I was cycling shifts with my hands to check smoothness and to ensure functionality.





Heres the bastard that was giving me grief and led to the unknown. Its a 2 (inner and outer) ring seal with a tension spring. The inner seal kept snagging the shaft edge and popping out the outer seal! 3-4-5 attempts later I got it on without messing it up, but like I said at that point I was trying to do it quickly sot he Yamabond didn't thicken too much, and in doing so rushed too much and forgot to check to make sure nothing inside fell out of place. I don't think it did, at least im hoping.



And this is the cases together!

 
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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
Took casings apart again just to play with the tranny. AS when I put the shift linkage in and attempted shifting it didn't seem I was getting all 6 gears. I could shift, turn countershaft, shift, and get5 gears and it almost wanted 6th but not quite. It would hang up on the shift star right on the peak of the cog. For peace of mind I took it apart and re-inspected, and played with the shift drum and whatnot. It appears it can only go one way, which should sound idiot proof...but this idiot had to make sure! I don't think its possible to mess up installation of the shift drum, so it must be what it is. For the record, the manual ONLY states "install shift drum and verify smooth operation". I installed it just like the picture was as it showed the gear position sensor holes, and I mocked it up the same.

What I cant figure out is where the hell neutral is on the shift drum/star. Or maybe im looking for what isn't there?? You can tell which gear you're in by the gear reduction (tranny shaft rotation vs clutch shaft rotation) but neutral feels imperceptable by hand! And when in neutral you should be able to spin both shafts independently of each other, and I can only do that when the shift forks disengage between shifts (say 2-3, 3-4, etc) but I cant hit a definitive N all on its own (between 1-2), it always seems its in gear. I can get N if its like a half shift, but that seems like it would be wrong considering the shift linkage doesn't sit in its OWN channel on the shift star this way.

Either way, Im utilizing the entire shift drum and it appears it cant be wrong. I can get 6 definitive clicks out of the shift star and drum (though the star has 7 sections....hmmm), so N must be in there somewhere Im hoping. Maybe something to do with the inertia of moving parts that I cant simulate by hand? I dunno. Alls I know is its installed and cant be placed wrong so Im hoping it works in the long run, and it SHOULD seeing as theres only one way to install it, I DIDNT take the gears apart or off the shafts, and Im utilizing the entire shift drum.

On a lighter note, the FACTORY PRO RVO SHIFT STAR is a direct replacement and I haven't had problems with that. Though, what I figured NEUTRAL was, was the little indent (smaller crevice) on it (rather than the full 'hill" if you want to call it that, maybe ill snap a pic to show you guys what my terminology lacks). But oddly enough, when all mounted up, the little crevice is the only one that doesn't engage the shift linkage as the shift drum doesn't allow it to rotate that far (and wont by design it appears). But it sure as hell looks like NEUTRAL to me. And my stock shift star APPEARS to have some wear in that little groove adding to my curiosity about the entire thing. ANYONE KNOW??

Heres the little indent at 3 oclock position, stock on left, EVO on right (cant see little indent in pic)


THIS IS HOW I PRESUMED IT TO BE (AS I DIDNT, AND SHOULD HAVE, TESTED BEFORE TEARDOWN) also EXPLAINS WHY IT IS HARD TO FIND ON THESE BIKES SINCE THE VALLEY IS SO SHALLOW. But like I said, the shift drum doesn't allow the linkage to select that shallow valley. The shift star isn't symmetrical on the back and can only engage the shift drum ONE way with specific cutouts to align it, so it CANT be installed wrong unless you're just completely mechanically inept.



But I tossed the primary gear and clutch on the other night as well. As well as the rear timing chain and idler gear.

Things SHOULD move quickly on this thing now as it wont take long to button up the top I don't think. As long as im home and not out somewhere working.

EDIT: THINKING OUT LOUD HERE, DOES THE CLUTCH PUSH ROD AFFECT NEUTRAL?? I MEAN WHEN THE ROD IS ACTUATED, WILL THAT PROMOTE THE TRANNY FINDING NUETRAL? I CANT SEE HOW IT AFFECTS THE SHIFT DRUM/STAR COMBO HOWEVER. SOMEONE ENLIGHTEN ME?? Regardless, I should be able to simply find neutral with the foot pedal as well, so maybe the clutch push rod idea is moot??
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Alright, got pissed off and went to go figure it out last night. Got it sorted now.

Have no idea why it works no compared to the other day...all I did was remove the locking lever from the shift star, rotate the shift star/drum to where Neutral should have been according to where the locking lever would line up in the valley, and remount the locking lever. Shifts fine now. 1-6 AND N.

Now....I have no idea why I couldn't rotate the shift drum to N in the first place since I literally changed nothing. All I did this time was start the shift star in N, and work around it. Rather than having it in whatever gear, THEN attempting to find Neutral. I cant see a difference.

BUT I DONT GIVE A **** AND ITS WORKING AND STAYING THIS WAY!!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Got the pistons hooked to the connecting rod. That's a pain that I don't think can be done without 4 hands. The sleeves kept pushing up and I kept popping rings out of the cylinder. Finally got frustrated enough hat I waited a day or two for my dad to swing by for some extra hands. Went OK after that.

Now the sleeves and heads are bolted on and torqued. Just gotta pop the cams in and hope my tensioners work, rotate the assembly a bunch and check my valve tolerances. Pop some covers on those bastards and install the generator cover, fill with oil, and install the starter!

Now the real work of getting it back into the bike and hooking **** up where it needs to be starts.

ill post pics of where everything on the stator side is, as the cover is still off. I installed the clutch side covers already some time ago.
 

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Great progress so far.

Looks like you should be up and running by riding weather time.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Tonight maybe Ill toss the cams in there and see if the tensioners will do their job.

Forgot about the oil cooler, Ill install that, then check valve clearances once the chains are on. Getting close! But getting the engine back in and all that kinda stuff linked up will be some work. Contemplating ordering a ROTTWEILER...but wondering if itll be rideable without a tune. I think it would be OK til I can get it flashed or whatnot. The difference is added air, so Im assuming the fuel injection can just compensate for the most part.

We've likely another 2 full months til I can even ride. Never get on the road really before about May 6th. Conditions might be nice enough weather wise, but the amount of gravel on the roads everywhere isn't conducive to any amount of fun / spirited driving. And I cant control myself I have to give'r!
 

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The injection can't compensate, well perhaps when cruising at part throttle if you've got the O2 sensors, but not everywhere else. ( open loop/closed loop if you know what i mean? )

The team i know had tried this intake, they quickly put the stock air box back on, doesn't work well it seems.
 

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The injection can't compensate, well perhaps when cruising at part throttle if you've got the O2 sensors, but not everywhere else. ( open loop/closed loop if you know what i mean? )

The team i know had tried this intake, they quickly put the stock air box back on, doesn't work well it seems.

It works great with the right tune from what I hear. You have to tune it though otherwise its pointless.
 
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