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Well, we can agree to disagree :). I believe you are correct in that they do not have a 6 axis IMU
I AM correct in that FACT (check it, if you want). Therefore, that bike IS NOT better in EVERY respect, period. If it's for you, you should have stated 'FOR ME'. But ignoring facts is what's making this country crap, so I wanted to call you out on that :). You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts ;). Good day.
 

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I AM correct in that FACT (check it, if you want). Therefore, that bike IS NOT better in EVERY respect, period. If it's for you, you should have stated 'FOR ME'. But ignoring facts is what's making this country crap, so I wanted to call you out on that :). You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts ;). Good day.
Wow! Really?

Ok firstly, apologies to the OP for polluting their thread with this but i am going to respond to the above because it seems a bit silly.

It's so funny that some people get their noses put so far out of joint if everyone doesn't agree with their personal opinion. From your post i guess you @elp_jc are one such person.
Despite me making a concerted effort to be sure not to offend you AND to actually agree with parts of your statement (that i don't need to check because i am correct, as were you, in part) you still somehow managed to get your skirt in a twist and see the need to have a hissy fit and show a great deal of immaturity as if i had made some sort of personal attack on you.

In response to your totally incorrect statement i say this.
You believe having an IMU makes a bike better than another that does not. That is your opinion and i respect that whilst not agreeing with it.
It's the same as saying a bike with 200hp is "better" than a bike with 180.

Simply saying an IMU means a bike is better is absurd. You may as well say a red bike is better because of it's colour.

Maybe if you quantified your statement with some FACTS it would help your argument, but you didn't even bother to do that.
I mean, of the bikes mentioned in this discussion, is the one with the IMU faster around a race track (it isn't btw) in like for like situations?
Does being faster around a race track even make it "better".
These type of comparisons could go on and on but my point is made.

If your country is crap then gee, sorry about that. Perhaps it's something to do with nuffies selectively deciding on what they choose to see, hear or believe and taking it as gospel. Or peoples narrowmindedness and inability to be objective.

This is meant to be a forum of like minded individuals sharing a common interest.
If you want to be childishly pedantic then keep it at home.

Seriously dude. I'm all for a good debate but don't try and get so self righteous if everyone doesn't fall into line with you personal beliefs.
I'm sure the OP is capable of forming his own opinion with the original information he was given.
Your dispute with what i had said is purely subjective and not based on anything other than your own beliefs.
I can disagree with what you say and you can disagree with me. It's no biggy.

I said that i thought the debate on electronics was probably best left to another thread.
By all means start such a thread and i will be happy to hear your thoughts on this and to likewise share mine.
I may not agree with everything you may have to say there, but i will absolutely listen to your point of view and consider it.
I would hope you could do the same without being offended or unpleasant.

Anyways, take care bud and have a great day.

Peace out :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
You guys make some very interesting points. I appreciate your perspectives! Thank you all!

It seems very common for people everywhere to present their “opinions” as “facts” on any topic (including oil, tires, etc.). I suppose that they really think that they are expressing irrefutable facts. Some people seem to need the powerful feeling of certainty, of being “right”…and making everyone else “wrong”.

However, these so called “facts” are subject to interpretation, debate and change. It’s much more useful and helpful to all if a person explains in detail WHY they think X is “better” than Y. What reasons? What are the benefits, advantages and disadvantages?

We invite conflict when we start using terms like “better” or “best”. That’s an opinion, a judgement call…which depends on what bikes we’ve ridden and what we’re comparing it to.

I have short legs, so a bike that’s “best” for me, would suck for someone with long legs. So, it would be inaccurate, unhelpful, and wrong for me to criticize a tall bike as being “bad” (for everyone) and a short one as “best” (for everyone). It’s all relative, for example “fast”, “slow”, “heavy”, etc.

Why get angry, rude and abusive over things? It’s all too easy to use the anonymity of the internet to say things in a way that we would never dare to face to face (unless we wanted to eat a knuckle sandwich).

Why not instead have a civil, respectful discussion? We all love two wheels after all.

I try to express my opinions as opinions, and identify them by saying “in my opinion”, or “for me”, etc. But sometimes I forget to.

Others probably forget too. So, I give them the benefit of the doubt and silently in my mind tell myself that they are expressing their opinion (even if they think it’s a cold, hard “fact”).

That way, it’s easier to hear it without getting upset. May I suggest that we all give it a try so that we can have a pleasant, good-natured discussion that we can all learn and benefit from.

Thanks everyone! Sorry it was so long.


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Very well said @BuddhaBiker.
I couldn't agree more with all the points you made.
You are a wise man(y)

I hope we can all just try to share and enjoy our common passion, even if we don't always see eye to eye on everything.
Differing points of view make the world interesting and don't need to be combative.

And to @elp_jc
I certainly never intended to offend you with my original post and apologise if i did so.
The first beer's on me should we ever get the chance too catch up. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
Because it isnt actually basic. Theory and practice aren't the same. Test environments and real world arent the same either. Theres also hiccups for training and tooling setup on new engines where your factory has to be trained to quickly and properly perform every task for assembly in a reliable way.

Every engine you've ever seen went through thousands of adjustments by a team of technicians and engineers during its development and early production cycles. Its virtually impossible to capture every problem and fix it on a year 0 production run.

Your harley engine was likely one which harley has been making for a long time, so things like seals and mating surface design are sorted out. HDs are also really basic, low performance engines based on very old design. We can talk about the basic electrical stuff HD flubbed back in the day, if you like. :)
I understand and appreciate what you’re saying, and that’s why I try to avoid purchasing a new model, a clean sheet design (or a major redesign) in its first or second year. That’s why I waited for the second generation Super Duke in 2017.

But I still say that it seems pretty basic to be able to keep the fluids inside the engine where they belong. My Harley didn’t leak a drop, and NONE of my MANY former bikes (mostly water cooled) had any water or oil leaks or radiator issues.

My Harley had the all new Milwaukee Eight engine, not an old design which had all of the bugs worked out.

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Well, maybe check out a 2022 Duke 890?

The Duke 790 and now 890 engines take advantage of a lot of new developments that KTM put a lot of work into. This always has kinks. They probably still dont fully understand all the failure modes of this engine because it is split differently than most, and uses some new casting techniques. New technology isnt possible without people willing to deal with the little issues inherent in them.
 

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I am in the camp of long term reliability questions as well, my 2021 Duke 890r was burning through a sizable amount of oil with no discernible leaks. Took it into the shop a week ago and they called to tell me they ordered new valves to replace the originals because that's where the leak was originating from. Bike has about 6,000 miles on it so not too thrilled with that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
Well, maybe check out a 2022 Duke 890?

The Duke 790 and now 890 engines take advantage of a lot of new developments that KTM put a lot of work into. This always has kinks. They probably still dont fully understand all the failure modes of this engine because it is split differently than most, and uses some new casting techniques. New technology isnt possible without people willing to deal with the little issues inherent in them.
Well, it doesn’t seem to me that they have put ENOUGH R&D work into it.

I don’t think that it’s right for owners to pay many thousands for a bike and end up unwittingly becoming alpha/beta testers. I don’t think that they ARE knowingly or willingly dealing with the “little” issues (which I don’t consider to be little).

For the premium price that KTM charges for their bikes they shouldn’t release them until they can rectify these common issues that have persisted since the 790 motor was first released. That 790/890 motor is now into the 2nd or 3rd generation (if you count the 890 base as 2nd gen, and the 890R as 3rd gen).

So, they’ve had plenty of time and opportunity to rectify these issues, but they still haven’t. So, I can only conclude that either their engineers lack the talent or skill, or the bean counters have decided that it’s more economical to just address (or ignore) the issues on a case-by-case basis.

They are using band aid fixes, rather than getting to the root of the problems by fixing their obviously faulty designs. They should spend more priority time and effort on fixing the known issues than trying to squeeze a little more performance out of the engine or chassis. What good is it to have a bike that’s “Ready to Race”…right to the mechanic shop?

Other premium brands, like my BMW, my Indian, Victory or Harley, or even the big four Japanese I’ve owned, NEVER had these kinds of issues. I feel that it’s reasonable for anyone to expect a premium brand, sold for a premium price, to deliver premium build quality and dependability (not just performance).

It’s not enough that they fix the issues under warranty. That doesn’t make up for the time, expense, inconvenience and lost riding time that I experienced MANY times with my Super Duke R.

If they can’t (or won’t) build a reliable product, then the least they should do is to provide a THREE year warranty, and a free loaner bike, as I had experienced with my BMW.


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The 890R and 890 engine are identical, afaik. At any rate the R was released prior tot.he non-R. The R spec is a change in suspension. By that metric, we're At gen2.

I dont know what you want from this forum. It seems clear that the Duke 890 is not the bike for you. I'm sorry your super duke was problematic, but theres nothing this forum can do besides try to explain to you what to expect if you had bought an 890:

  1. Possible coolant leak from coolant pump cover area. this leak is very slow. I'm buying new seals this week. It's an easy change.
  2. Possible CS seal leak - and issue which seems to have been corrected on newer builds. This probably seems to have always shown up prior to warranty expiration. Inhave not heard of a case of KTM failing to fix this issue.
  3. Some finicky electronics stuff including quickshifter calibration and traction control systems temporarily deactivating. this is also easily fixed with your KTM dealer, Also typically under warranty.
  4. Oil burning via some issue related to the engine head.
I have had item 1 and 3 but not 2 and 4 at 3500 miles. For me, item 1 Looks to be a 20$ fix. The coolant pump is very easily accessed. For item 3, I have not had QS problems, but have had the TCS deactivate. This appears to be related to stopping the engine while rolling.

If anyone else has an issue to report, feel free.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
The 890R and 890 engine are identical, afaik. At any rate the R was released prior tot.he non-R. The R spec is a change in suspension. By that metric, we're At gen2.

I dont know what you want from this forum. It seems clear that the Duke 890 is not the bike for you. I'm sorry your super duke was problematic, but theres nothing this forum can do besides try to explain to you what to expect if you had bought an 890:

  1. Possible coolant leak from coolant pump cover area. this leak is very slow. I'm buying new seals this week. It's an easy change.
  2. Possible CS seal leak - and issue which seems to have been corrected on newer builds. This probably seems to have always shown up prior to warranty expiration. Inhave not heard of a case of KTM failing to fix this issue.
  3. Some finicky electronics stuff including quickshifter calibration and traction control systems temporarily deactivating. this is also easily fixed with your KTM dealer, Also typically under warranty.
  4. Oil burning via some issue related to the engine head.
I have had item 1 and 3 but not 2 and 4 at 3500 miles. For me, item 1 Looks to be a 20$ fix. The coolant pump is very easily accessed. For item 3, I have not had QS problems, but have had the TCS deactivate. This appears to be related to stopping the engine while rolling.

If anyone else has an issue to report, feel free.
Thank you for your feedback!

Unfortunately, it sounds like KTM’s (still) have too many unacceptable unresolved issues for me. To someone else it may be no problem.

You guys saved me from another frustrating and aggravating ownership experience. I’ll spend my money elsewhere.

Best wishes that you guys very much enjoy your bikes!


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Personally, I love/hate my Duke 890R. Love how much fun it is, starting to hate its lack of reliability (obviously I can only speak to my personal experience so far). I had concerns about it going in but loved the handling and brakes so much decided to take the plunge. After 6 months I've had it in to try and get the quick shifter calibrated twice at two different dealers and it's still not right (the last dealer told me I needed to "pull the clutch lever in at least halfway on these bikes before using the QS"). And this last weekend at the track it decided to flash a low oil pressure warning then puked its oil out all over the place, so back to the dealer to try and get that fixed now. It's an awesome bike when it works, but definitely starting to question my decision.
 

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Well, that bites. The variance on reliability seems pretty large on the 890. Sounds like a pretty rapid and catastrophic oil pump failure. Hopefully they warranty your bike. :(

My coolant leak was the drain plug coming slightly loose in the cover plate. Sinched it up, all is well now. I'm now worried my Bike will explode at the track lol
 

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Keep in mind that I'm only speaking from my personal experience. Everyone has to do their own reliability risk/reward assessment.....for me it just turns out I'm bad at math =)
 

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My 890r has been been in the shop for almost 3 weeks now getting new cylinders and valves, on a bike with 6,000 miles. Not terribly happy and probably my first and last KTM.
 

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Did you get any info about the failure From the shop? Have they had this problem on other bikes?
No info yet. It’s supposed to be ready Saturday so hopefully they have some idea. I’m not holding my breath though. I’ve owned bikes for years and never seen anything like this on a brand new motorcycle.
 

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Well, I've seen some pretty awful engineering failures in bikes.

Aprilia RS450/550s needed a new engine every, like, 8 hours. Shame, it was a really wicked engine.

Husqvarna tr650 had an air filter that allowed dirty bypass air, requiring a 6k mile valve inspect interval who's first step in the official manual was "remove the engine." Was a pretty brilliant and inexpensive middleweight dual sport, otherwise. Still cant believe I put 25k miles on it haha

Hopefully you can part ways with the bike with minimal loss, or clamp down on whatever caused failure.
 

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Well, it doesn’t seem to me that they have put ENOUGH R&D work into it.

I don’t think that it’s right for owners to pay many thousands for a bike and end up unwittingly becoming alpha/beta testers. I don’t think that they ARE knowingly or willingly dealing with the “little” issues (which I don’t consider to be little).

For the premium price that KTM charges for their bikes they shouldn’t release them until they can rectify these common issues that have persisted since the 790 motor was first released. That 790/890 motor is now into the 2nd or 3rd generation (if you count the 890 base as 2nd gen, and the 890R as 3rd gen).

So, they’ve had plenty of time and opportunity to rectify these issues, but they still haven’t. So, I can only conclude that either their engineers lack the talent or skill, or the bean counters have decided that it’s more economical to just address (or ignore) the issues on a case-by-case basis.

They are using band aid fixes, rather than getting to the root of the problems by fixing their obviously faulty designs. They should spend more priority time and effort on fixing the known issues than trying to squeeze a little more performance out of the engine or chassis. What good is it to have a bike that’s “Ready to Race”…right to the mechanic shop?

Other premium brands, like my BMW, my Indian, Victory or Harley, or even the big four Japanese I’ve owned, NEVER had these kinds of issues. I feel that it’s reasonable for anyone to expect a premium brand, sold for a premium price, to deliver premium build quality and dependability (not just performance).

It’s not enough that they fix the issues under warranty. That doesn’t make up for the time, expense, inconvenience and lost riding time that I experienced MANY times with my Super Duke R.

If they can’t (or won’t) build a reliable product, then the least they should do is to provide a THREE year warranty, and a free loaner bike, as I had experienced with my BMW.


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I can't say much to long-term reliability when my short-term experience has been less than impressive.
Love at first ride on my 2019 new 790. Updated from my one-owner 2006 SV650S.

That was almost a year ago.
Since then, I still rate the ride as fantastic, having racked up 11K kms, including a 4K km touring holiday.

However, this awesome riding experience has proven more costly in time, registration&insurance downtime, convenience and stress than I could have anticipated in a machine in its 3rd year of production.
And that's quite apart from being dicked around by the dealer in various ways in the process.

So, in the last 11 1/2 months, here is the work done so far under warranty to address ongoing engine cutout issues, other fuelling problems, plus other parts failures :
  • Keys recoded
  • Fuses replaced
  • ECU values reset
  • Injectors
  • Plugs
  • Battery
  • New ECU
  • Throttle bodies
  • Clutch switch
  • Coolant hose clips
  • Worm clamps for main coolant hoses
  • Valve cover gasket (*oops, edited from head gasket. Sorry about that *)
  • And KTMA picking up the tab for the recent service (except the oil, which we paid for because the dealership doesn't use Motul), for my patience.

Now, the cutouts are still occurring, and we've just discovered it appears the thermostat housing has sprung a leak.

So, while I'm glad KTM Australia are doing all they can to help find the cause of the main problem, I can see the second half of this warranty disappearing before my eyes.
Like BuddhaBiker, I am questioning the rigour of the R&D and the resources going into factory solutions post-production.
Again, this bike was built in the model's THIRD year.
 
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