KTM Forums banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know some of you more experienced riders probably know the limits of MTC, but it would be nice if it were officially explained by KTM themselves. Does anyone know where KTM explains the limits of the MTC for the 2019 SDGT? There are subtle differences for MTC between my 2017 SDGT and my 2019 SDGT. Specifically, the front wheel seems to rise higher on the 2019, and the throttle chop seems to be more abrupt when reaching the limit. But all I can find in the "official" user manual is how to turn MTC on and off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #3

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I DO appreciate the information, I appreciate knowing as much as I can about how MTC works and where the limits are. But it doesn't explain how it handles wheelie control. In particular, where does it begin to reduce power to the rear wheel during wheelies and how the throttle reacts to wheelies at the limit?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
338 Posts
The bike uses an Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) that senses Yaw, Pitch and Roll angles. I'm sure the parameters programmed are top secret. The wheelie control will let you play if you whack the throttle but keep you safe from looping the bike, and when you roll on the throttle hard like coming out of a corner or doing a pull on an on-ramp it will keep the wheel planted or slightly floating.

As far as when it cuts power at a certain degree of lift, I'm not sure, I can say, it won't get you to balance point and the wheelie control calibration probably varies year to year.

Setup a camera on a tripod and try it out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The bike uses an Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) that senses Yaw, Pitch and Roll angles. I'm sure the parameters programmed are top secret. The wheelie control will let you play if you whack the throttle but keep you safe from looping the bike, and when you roll on the throttle hard like coming out of a corner or doing a pull on an on-ramp it will keep the wheel planted or slightly floating.

As far as when it cuts power at a certain degree of lift, I'm not sure, I can say, it won't get you to balance point and the wheelie control calibration probably varies year to year.

Setup a camera on a tripod and try it out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I am not sure why the parameters would be top secret? It seems if the system effects riding conditions, it might make sense to publish the parameters and effects. That way, you can tell if you want it on or not.

I can say what KTM has done with the MTC is different between the 2017 and the 2019. The few times I have wheelied the front has come up higher and the power reduction is much more abrupt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
278 Posts
The MTC does not prevent you from looping a wheelie. It prevents you from doing one, on the 17'+ models (I have a 19') If you want to wheelie, you can disable it, or hit TRACK mode and disable wheelie control there but still have a say so in how much wheel spin you'll have under throttle. When you're in any other mode and disable the MTC, you can wheelie, but you literally have disabled all of the traction control.

I think that's a fun way to ride sometimes, but when I'm getting down to business on twisty roads, etc, I'll just go to TRACK and disable the wheelie mode. On a track, you likely want to keep it on for the drive out of the corners. Whatever suits you...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
The MTC does not prevent you from looping a wheelie. It prevents you from doing one, on the 17'+ models (I have a 19') If you want to wheelie, you can disable it, or hit TRACK mode and disable wheelie control there but still have a say so in how much wheel spin you'll have under throttle. When you're in any other mode and disable the MTC, you can wheelie, but you literally have disabled all of the traction control.

I think that's a fun way to ride sometimes, but when I'm getting down to business on twisty roads, etc, I'll just go to TRACK and disable the wheelie mode. On a track, you likely want to keep it on for the drive out of the corners. Whatever suits you...
By wheelie, I mean lifting the wheel off the ground. I have done that on both my '17 and '19 SDGT with MTC on. It's just that the '19 seems to allow a little higher lift. But both prevent looping.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
278 Posts
I'll respectfully disagree. The only thing preventing looping is your skill, not the electronics of the bike if it's set in a mode where the front end is allowed to lift more than a few inches. We may be talking about 2 different things, but I'd rather not read about someone thinking it was safe to whack the throttle and try a wheelie because it's in a "safe" mode and can't loop on them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,946 Posts
Wheelie Control and MTC are related, but different, so we ARE talking about 2 different things. Wheelie control has different degrees of intervention depending upon setting. MTC is less discriminating and is either on or off. Wheelie control kicks in according to the angle sensed by the IMU, so you can wheelie when it's on. How high depends upon the setting. MTC will stop all but the smallest wheelies (and wheelspin) unless it's switched off in which case, it's up to your skills to prevent a loop or slide. With MTC, when the speed of the rear wheel exceeds the speed of the front, the ECU intervenes and cuts power unless MTC is switched off. MTC also acts like a slipper clutch when you downshift. It adds slight throttle to stop the wheel from locking up or breaking traction, keeping the rear rotating at the same speed as the front. With Wheelie control, power is held at certain levels according to the angle sensed by the IMU. Exactly what those angles are would have to be quantified by an SDR owner or KTM. I know the SDR I test-rode in 2015 had the Wheelie Control set and per instructions, I did not mess with it. But it pulled a perfect, block-long wheelie at a distinct angle, no more.

No electronic aids are foolproof, ABS included.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
.... Exactly what those angles are would have to be quantified by ... KTM....
Exactly my question, is there any documentation by KTM for what the electronics (MTC) does? Not speculation on the internet forums, even by expert or knowledgeable riders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,946 Posts
I don't think they publish such specs. It's left up to the individual how much control they want, quantified by personal experience. If you are looking for certain loft heights for a certain settings, I don't think you'll ever get a true answer without finding out what it means on your own machine. Trackday types and racers experiment to find the best combination for what they want to accomplish. Street riders wanting guarantees on what their machine will do in a given circumstance with certain settings are barking up an empty tree.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
278 Posts
Good posts Hammerhead. On my 19' I know of no way to set an angle of pitch electronically to prevent a looping. Maybe I've overlooked something, but I did pour over it and have ridden literally a thousand wheelies on this thing :)

As to your point about electronics not guaranteeing anything, those are wise words. I leave it up to 3 things when wheelieing. 1) How I feel. 2) My right foot covering the rear brake, and 3) THROTTLE CONTROL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,946 Posts
I've never played with an SDR's wheelie control (under pain of death, according to the salesman who tossed me the keys) How many setting are there?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
266 Posts
I don't think they publish such specs. It's left up to the individual how much control they want, quantified by personal experience. If you are looking for certain loft heights for a certain settings, I don't think you'll ever get a true answer without finding out what it means on your own machine. Trackday types and racers experiment to find the best combination for what they want to accomplish. Street riders wanting guarantees on what their machine will do in a given circumstance with certain settings are barking up an empty tree.
Well put! I have a 2019 SDGT, and I have accidentally raised the front wheel a few inches at an intersection, but aside from turning the wheelie control off in TRACK mode, I have not found any degrees of adjustment for any of the settings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,946 Posts
Well put! I have a 2019 SDGT, and I have accidentally raised the front wheel a few inches at an intersection, but aside from turning the wheelie control off in TRACK mode, I have not found any degrees of adjustment for any of the settings.
Possibly the SDR has discreet anti-wheelie settings?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
278 Posts
Nah, we can turn it on or off 2 ways, but there's no variables and no life insurance. TC off in any mode will allow you to release your inner hooligan, and then in track mode you can turn off wheelie control but still regulate wheel spin, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
612 Posts
Things like screw and fastener sizes has been standardized. You can find SAE, metric, Whitworth, JIS, and others. Things like socket wrenches in the US can be found most commonly in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2. Things like TC have not yet reached a point where they have been standardized across the board for all manufacturers. In GP racing, different teams and manufacturers independently work on electronic aids without sharing because it is a competitive environment. Perhaps in time but with motos seemingly going the way of the dodo we may never reach any consensus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Things like screw and fastener sizes has been standardized. You can find SAE, metric, Whitworth, JIS, and others. Things like socket wrenches in the US can be found most commonly in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2. Things like TC have not yet reached a point where they have been standardized across the board for all manufacturers. In GP racing, different teams and manufacturers independently work on electronic aids without sharing because it is a competitive environment. Perhaps in time but with motos seemingly going the way of the dodo we may never reach any consensus.
I disagree, if a racer were to ask a team manufacturer what the heck a particular control does, you can bet the manufacturer would stumble all over itself to explain. When I'm the rider and someone sells me something, generally I expect to know what I'm are getting. Now, it seems, it is okay for manufacturers, not just KTM, to say, hey, with this motorcycle you get Traction Control. What the heck is that, what does it do? Well ... we really don't want to tell you, because it's a trade secret, or it isn't standardized, or gives away our competitive edge. Oh, here's the on/off button!

Why don't we need to know what MTC does? Doesn't it affect how we ride a motorcycle? It's bad enough that all the manufacturers seems to be in collusion with this practice of not sharing technical specs. But it is worse, to me, that buyers/riders make the same excuses and give the same pass. Without questioning it, it just allows the sales practices to continue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
I disagree, if a racer were to ask a team manufacturer what the heck a particular control does, you can bet the manufacturer would stumble all over itself to explain. When I'm the rider and someone sells me something, generally I expect to know what I'm are getting. Now, it seems, it is okay for manufacturers, not just KTM, to say, hey, with this motorcycle you get Traction Control. What the heck is that, what does it do? Well ... we really don't want to tell you, because it's a trade secret, or it isn't standardized, or gives away our competitive edge. Oh, here's the on/off button!

Why don't we need to know what MTC does? Doesn't it affect how we ride a motorcycle? It's bad enough that all the manufacturers seems to be in collusion with this practice of not sharing technical specs. But it is worse, to me, that buyers/riders make the same excuses and give the same pass. Without questioning it, it just allows the sales practices to continue.
I don't care about the 1s and 0s and the TC tables and the how. And neither do racers. All I need to know is that it works and will work when I need it to work. Do you honestly think Rossi and Marquez demand an in-depth deep-dive in to how all the sensors and IMUs and ECU all work together to provide traction control? No. They test the bike. Tell the techs and engineers what they're feeling, what they like and don't like, and the techs and engineers interpret and make the necessary changes to their bike to get it to feel the way they want.

Engineer: "So uh, Valentino. We changed the 1s and 0s around in these tables. Traction control should be less intrusive now. Here, let me show you what I did and how I do it."

Valentino: "Ehhh-uhhhh, cool-ah story bro."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I don't care about the 1s and 0s and the TC tables and the how. And neither do racers. All I need to know is that it works and will work when I need it to work. Do you honestly think Rossi and Marquez demand an in-depth deep-dive in to how all the sensors and IMUs and ECU all work together to provide traction control? No. They test the bike. Tell the techs and engineers what they're feeling, what they like and don't like, and the techs and engineers interpret and make the necessary changes to their bike to get it to feel the way they want.

Engineer: "So uh, Valentino. We changed the 1s and 0s around in these tables. Traction control should be less intrusive now. Here, let me show you what I did and how I do it."

Valentino: "Ehhh-uhhhh, cool-ah story bro."
Nope, Rossi is happy just to have his technical people say, "here's your bike, that's what you get, now just go race it. Oh and by the way, here is the on/off button for MTC!"
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top